Growing Number of Commercial 3pds - Good, Bad, Nature of the Beast?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Amy Stephen on October 8, 2009 at 8:56am

That is the question. Really interested in people's thinking on this, too. Can we collaborate more and would doing so help us collectively build a more strategic, architected environment? If so, how do we still put food on the table?

Permalink Reply by Shyam Verma on October 8, 2009 at 9:54am

In initial hobby developers were working on most of the projects, things which worked for their client they publish them in community. But now a days, being a vast number of joomla users, many of developers are thinking about it seriously. I am also leading few developers to achieve the same.

- shyam

Permalink Reply by Emmanuel Danan on October 8, 2009 at 10:23am

Excellent suggestion, that is the point !!!
Most of the companies (single developpers) want to manage everything alone.
That explains the lacks you find in code, UI design, documentation, marketing or support. According to my point of view the code is not more than 50% of a project success.
Let's take the case of the CCK's. When started to develop FLEXIcontent (www.flexicontent.org) at the end of December 2009, my goal was, is and will be to provide a totally free high quality software. That’s why I decided to make partnerships with people whom I appreciate the work, business spirit and community involvement.
We decided to work together with Rafael (www.dioscouri.com) and Akarawuth (www.joomlacorner.com) to work together on FLEXIcontent to reach a higher level in terms of code quality, features and support. Dioscouri is a well-known company in the Joomlasphere - I’ve been myself a customer for a long time – and their greatest strength, according to my point of view, is the CUSTOMER SUPPORT (just have a look to their customers’ comments in the JED). Of course they build nice and clever extensions too ;-)
Akarawuth is Mister Open source in Thaïland (these are the words from my friend Jean-Marie Simonet aka infograf768), with his developers’ team he will work on a new powerful templating system for the product.
Each of us could have built his own system but hopefully mine was not too bad (at least the structure was good enough) to be improved and we all decided to unite our skills and ideas to provide the users a better software.
This is just a sample of collaboration but I’m sure it will be successful and primarily for FLEXIcontent users!!!

Permalink Reply by Rafael Diaz-Tushman on October 8, 2009 at 10:39am

I'm personally very exited about working on FlexiContent with Emmanuel and Aka. I think that combing their leadership & codebase with my support team & developers will lead to a fantastic, free, supported CCK that extends (rather than replaces) the core content manager. I'm very hopeful about it.

Permalink Reply by Amy Stephen on October 8, 2009 at 11:00am

Very cool. Thanks for that. Really eager to see this come out.

Permalink Reply by Alex Andreae on October 8, 2009 at 4:01pm

If you know me, my background, or my website, you know my answer. Would I love everything to be $free? Yes. Do I think that commercialism of extensions is ok/good? Yes.

I've started almost this exact post a few times in different areas of this site (and never finished it), but it feels like it will be better here discussing some the commercial aspect of Joomla.. though it could easily go in any of the "Which is better, Drupal or Joomla"-like topics that have started.

Joomla's built differently than Drupal. Shocking, I know, but not everyone fully realizes how different the 3rd party eco-system is, it seems. With Drupal, most extensions are made up up many other ones. Token module, cck, views, maps api, etc. Look at any large Drupal modules page and see how many other modules it says must be installed first.

Joomla's very different at it's core. Most/all extensions are very monolithic in that they have to build from the ground up. Look at the requirements for a Joomla extension on the JED or CMS Market (I had to). It's usually Joomla 1.5 or Legacy. That's it. Everything else you need is in the component itself.

I think it'd be awesome if things went more the way of Drupal, as there would be more reuse. However, even with the CCK's that are being created now, they're not extendable to any content object (like nodes in Drupal), they're extendable if you only want to use that component's type of content object. Please don't harass me :), this isn't 100% accurate, but the point stands.

What does this have to do with commercial vs 'free'? A lot. The Drupal model gets more people to contribute to other extensions because if one of these low-level modules/plugins begin having issues or little/no support, a whole host of extensions suffer. Those devs then have a choice: 1) pitch in, 2) find a different low-level module, or 3) create it from scratch. Most seemingly choose #1, which then makes that module better.. used more.. and the cycle continues.

Meanwhile, Joomla is the exact opposite. Since things are built from the ground up (in many cases), if that extension starts to flounder for whatever reason, it (usually) affects just that extension. JomSocial or Community Builder and some others are some big exceptions since people plug into them, but hopefully I'm getting the point across.

So with that being said, commercial helps these monolithic Joomla devs because they're in it for themselves. It's a problem since people have to pay, but it's a good thing since they get support (hopefully). Take sh404SEF for example. It's still GPL, but commercial now. You may or may not like who's in charge of it now.. I do like Vic and the guys at Anything-Digital, but wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear from them for a few months while they overcome a big case of biting off more than they can chew. However, in the long run, it was necessary for that component. Donations don't cut it, and after the developer's love-of-work runs out, an extension dwindles. sh404SEF was in beta for J1.5 for over a year and was not getting the help/love/support it required. Commercialism, though unpopular, will help it to continue as a great extension.

P.S. These comment boxes are never big enough for me. The little scroll bar on the left is tiny by the time I'm done...

Permalink Reply by Amy Stephen on October 8, 2009 at 5:24pm

First of all, agreed: these comments boxes are ridiculously small and I've started responses and then waited for a better time. ;-)

I like it that you have given this thought - I like it that you think about these things. That's very helpful.

I understand how you have arrived at these conclusions and if everyone were as articulate, I would venture to guess most would express that point of view. It is very much a reflection of where we are now, at this stage in our evolution as a free software community.

BTW - I am a developer who must feed my family and I am not adverse to paying my bills. So, let's set that aside unless someone wants to identify themselves as our code slave. (And, in such a case, I called them first!)

I don't see how liking or not liking someone fits in this conversation. The truth is we really don't know one another and my hope is that we might just start over, if there are hard feelings. I certainly offer that to anyone who wants to start over with me and I ask for that act of grace from each of you.

I think you raise a good point when you say "most/all extensions are very monolithic in that they have to build from the ground up." Where we might differ is what's the path to our future? My concern is if such an approach is "business as usual in two years", then we will be looking at a dying project.

The truth is it is *hugely* inefficient (read: expensive) for every developer/company to create their own spam prevention, interfaces for adding fields, version management capabilities, and so on. What good is a work flow that only handles events from one Component?

So, as we move to better interoperability, it will become more dependent. More like Drupal, in fact. It's not that we are different than Drupal, which we are, it's that they are ahead of us in terms of software evolution. And, if we get there, it will be through collaboration, like they did.

I believe partnerships, like the one described above, between developers and companies who share GPL'ed software is the way forward. Those who do that, put their work out there where others can adapt it for their needs and, in doing so, position themselves and their companies for the future.

Anyway, that's my guess. What do I know, really? This is the first free software community evolution I have taken part in.

Respect, Alex. Please stay involved and keep sharing your perspectives.

Permalink Reply by Stian Didriksen on October 9, 2009 at 2:36pm

Hi,
joining this discussion as an developer, I'm taking from that perspective, not so much from a business perspective.

I've noticed a growing division in the Joomla community where one branch is going the solo route, and the other are starting to collaborate and share more and more with what you would call "competitors".

One of the most active groups on this have been JoomlaPraise, as they've actively contacted several vendors, including where I work, to help each other out and share knowledge and code with each other.
The other most active area on this topic is the Nooku mailing lists and group chats.
Especially in those chats there's an unique atmosphere where commercial developers who usually try to outcompete each other join forces and take their code to a new level, which results in better software and experiences to the end-users.

As a commercial developer it goes without saying I'm very competitive, but there's an difference in competing and outcompeting. Outcompeting usually results in everyone copying each others features and trying to steal each others users. Competing on the other hand creates differentiation. Instead of copying, we're innovating and going places that are unexplored.

Since every user have different needs, you can't create one single CCK extension for example that fit everyone. So it's good to have a collection to choose from. And by helping each other out, even on competing products, we're attracting users from other platforms like wp or drupal instead.
So by that everyone is gaining users, and no one is outcompeted.

I'm noticing a growing trend in this direction that grows every month.
So it's very exiting times we're experiencing.

Permalink Reply by Alex Andreae on October 9, 2009 at 4:02pm

While I agree in the Joomla environment, you can't currently have a single CCK extension that fits for everyone. However, I'll argue that that's simply the Joomla mindset. Drupal has 1 CCK and it extends 'nodes' instead of specific component items (as all the Joomla CCK's currently do it). It's expensive in some computational ways (lots of joins to see if what's being displayed has a CCK node for it), but cheap from the developer side of adding the hooks to use it and be done.

Joomla! could do things like this with it's plugin system, but most plugins simply do regex string replacements of some kind. Of course, this is oversimplifying again, but plugins/hooks are not fully used in the powerful way that Drupal does. Not saying that's the way Joomla should be, but it is a weakness in my opinion.

Like Amy mentions above, captcha's are a GREAT example. So many individual components do their own captcha. That takes time and effort away from developing other features (I've heard you say similar positive statements about Nooku many times, Stian).

Examples: A search for "captcha" on the JED:
http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/search/captcha
83 results, and most are extensions that are returning because they implement their own unique captcha system in their component.

Search for "captcha" on Drupal:
http://drupal.org/search/apachesolr_search/captcha?filters=type%3Ap...
21 results. 1st result is the "CAPTCHA" module. Many of the remaining are add-on packs or additions to this one module to enhance the CAPTCHA module with different fonts/styles/fluffy bunnies/whatever.

When someone creates a Drupal module, they now have the option to simply include this CAPTCHA module and their done. Joomla! devs will reinvent the wheel next time.

Things like the JEZ reCaptcha plugin is a great example of how it could work on Joomla, but devs need to integrate/promote this, and many don't. The most common use I've seen of that plugin is actual end-users integrating it into other extension template files, which isn't a good long-term solution for the Joomla community.

This is the biggest problem I see with Joomla. Very little reuse, which results in less solid and more extensions in general. In Drupal, once a low-level module is used enough, it's brought into the core. CCK, Views are huge examples of this. For Joomla, when we talk of bringing an extension into the core, it's a whole monolithic component (usually), not a building block that will generally make every devs life easier, it will only make the end-user's life easier. Which is good... and bad.

Quickly bringing it back to commercial vs 'free' topic: more (of your own) code == more support == more required ROI or Return on Love, whatever it is you're in it for.

I agree that JP is doing great in helping to start collaborations, as hopefully this site is too. It's important that devs start however they can. We write exclusively for Joomla for now, but obviously know the underlying architecture of Drupal pretty well. I hope that continues because I like Joomla's MVC better, but Drupal is like using legos to build a component, which is wonderful.

Permalink Reply by JoeJoomla on October 9, 2009 at 7:59pm

Last night at a JUG meeting we heard from several small business owners. They are frustrated by the number of extensions they are faced with. Not knowing which ones are really solid they simply try something and if their experience is negative for whatever reason (bad extension, poor support from developer, etc.) Joomla! takes a hit because that becomes a part of their early experience of using Joomla!

Wise Men say
only fools rush in
but I cant help
falling in love with you

The expectation of Joomla! is that it is easy to use and will do great things for you. We want people to fall in love with Joomla! and have a good experience. I don't know the answer to the question but I say; kudos to those who give us great stuff free and kudos to those who give us great stuff for a fee.

Permalink Reply by Arlen Walker on October 14, 2009 at 11:16pm

What you're facing here is a difference in ideology that you're going to have trouble getting past. The Drupal philosophy is to produce building blocks that work together to produce a result. The Joomla philosophy has always been to create a single monolithic block that produces the required result. Since everyone's desired results are different, the number of extensions cannot help but proliferate.

The only place to begin to attack this is in the Framework or the CMS core, by producing objects there that can be used/extended in developing components. But even then, there will need to be a way of "badging" extensions that follow best practices.

The mere existence of 3rd party libraries like nooku indicates there is an opportunity in the Framework or Core for gains in coding and development efficiency. We should move ahead on those lines, and see what we can do to improve development.

Permalink Reply by Amy Stephen on October 18, 2009 at 12:39pm

Agree.

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