Do you charge for "additional services"?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rita Lewis on January 22, 2011 at 10:16am

I have a terrible time convincing my clients (who are very small businesses or non-profits) that the basic software that comprises Joomla! and its add-ons needs updating on a regular basis (along with other housekeeping tasks on the server to ensure that the site keeps running efficiently). I have broken out maintenance on a monthly hourly rate up to a certain ceiling (usually 4 hours) and I have added it into the base fixed fee I charge, but clients are reluctant to take it on even when their sites fail to run fast after they have been given responsibility for content management OR worse, they get hacked because they failed to update the software.

 

I also have had arguments with clients when I say that I'll make three changes to design or layout other than correcting errors and then I have to charge for my time. I've lost several proposal bids this year because of this clause but if I don't put this in I find I get taken advantage of when committees change their minds on the look and feel of the site.

 

I even have terrible trouble getting my last payment because punch lists never end. And lately, I get arguments for my fees to add content -- my client says that it shouldn't take say an hour and a half to convert a PDF brochure to a Joomla article even if the brochure is three columns and has embedded images that need conversion.

 

Bottom line, customers will argue price but you need to charge for your time because it does take time to maintain a site (especially if aesthetics mean something to you and clients have been dumping Word files directly into Joomla overriding the template's typology). In addition, you need to charge for your knowledge. We have to educate our customers about the complexity underlying running a website so they understand what they are paying for.

Permalink Reply by Erik Werner on January 22, 2011 at 10:20am

Hi Steven,

 

I agree with you and do the same thing. I call it "maintenance support" and mean exactly what you describe (updating, clean up, backups, etc. - I also do not mind doing the occasional "can you upload to the site" thing). I also add it to the hosting fee and write one invoice - as I haven't had this individually yet (either hosting or support alone).

 

BW, Erik

 

Permalink Reply by Eddie May on January 22, 2011 at 7:05pm

Hi,

My small company has experienced all these problems & find that there's a delicate balance between realistic pricing and scaring off the smaller clients.  But to answer your question, yes charging for maintenance is something we try to do & its something that some of our clients try to resist!

We charge our clients a reasonable hosting fee & tend to include core updates for free - since this helps prevent hacking etc. However, almost every Joomla! install includes other components/modules (JCE, Akeeba, etc), so simpler sites tend to get these for free.

If a site has a lot of these extensions, or is based around a component (say HotProperty or similar) then we tend to charge more for hosting, just to help cover upgrade costs. In these circumstances we try to ensure that the client understands the extra they're paying for hosting. That said, many even then don't seem to want to understand that these charges are necessary or fair. I'm looking for an accepted example from another sector that would help "normalise" the need for paying for upgrades.

 

We've also done the "small update" for free but have found that once you've done the client one favour, they expect to have things done for free forever, and the favours tend to get bigger! We now refuse to do "freebies" and say any such request will take  at least an hour. If clients complain, I ask them how often they do work for free! If they expect you to do things for free, then they don't respect you & they are being short sited.

 

One thing I have noticed is that the "cheap" clients (ie, those who try to bargain everything down) tend to be the "high maintenance" clients - so if a potential client tries to reduce the price I tend to "walk away" if I can afford to. Too often I've spent unprofitable time "pleasing" these clients rather than winning more rewarding clients.

Permalink Reply by Eddie May on January 22, 2011 at 7:11pm

Hi Rita,

I've had all these problems and more! Now, if a client wants something uploading onto their site, I ask for it already converted from pdf into html or as raw text & images. I particularly hate when clients send Word docs with naff images and then complain that the embedded image looks naff when its on the website! For any such content update I charge a min. 1 hour fee, since there is always subsidiary work (answering emails, raising invoices) that often doesn't get charged for. FreshBooks is good on this score, with its timer functionality.

 

Eddie

Rita Lewis said:

I have a terrible time convincing my clients (who are very small businesses or non-profits) that the basic software that comprises Joomla! and its add-ons needs updating on a regular basis (along with other housekeeping tasks on the server to ensure that the site keeps running efficiently). I have broken out maintenance on a monthly hourly rate up to a certain ceiling (usually 4 hours) and I have added it into the base fixed fee I charge, but clients are reluctant to take it on even when their sites fail to run fast after they have been given responsibility for content management OR worse, they get hacked because they failed to update the software.

 

I also have had arguments with clients when I say that I'll make three changes to design or layout other than correcting errors and then I have to charge for my time. I've lost several proposal bids this year because of this clause but if I don't put this in I find I get taken advantage of when committees change their minds on the look and feel of the site.

 

I even have terrible trouble getting my last payment because punch lists never end. And lately, I get arguments for my fees to add content -- my client says that it shouldn't take say an hour and a half to convert a PDF brochure to a Joomla article even if the brochure is three columns and has embedded images that need conversion.

 

Bottom line, customers will argue price but you need to charge for your time because it does take time to maintain a site (especially if aesthetics mean something to you and clients have been dumping Word files directly into Joomla overriding the template's typology). In addition, you need to charge for your knowledge. We have to educate our customers about the complexity underlying running a website so they understand what they are paying for.

Permalink Reply by Steven Zeegers on January 23, 2011 at 10:06am

Eddie,

 

We get those "Word Documents" all the time.  Fortunately for us, our customers don't complain about how bad the images look.  I'm sure most of my customers actually believe they're the best pictures ever made. Last week, for example, we received a "batch" of images (Okay, an 11 page Word doc) which were 1) way too small and 2) they were just plain bad photographs.  Our client claimed them to be "perfect for the site", though.

 

Now, you'll never guess in what form I received their texts I had to upload.  In a Powerpoint document.  Let me tell you: It's been a hell to copy all the content and add it to the site; especially since most "slides" were broken up into three different text areas.  I spent hours following this procedure:  copy -> paste in notepad, to be sure -> paste in joomla.  Repeat 3 times for each slide.  Times 25 slides.

 

"It shouldn't take long, right? All the text is already written!".  Right...

 

Okay, so this is slightly off topic. Sue me. 

Permalink Reply by Rita Lewis on January 23, 2011 at 10:30am

Eddie, I practice the same policies and Freshbooks is terrific. I've used it for about 5 years. But, some clients fight because they don't understand. Those are the ones that need educating. It is good to have my policies validated. I'm almost to the point of not dealing with very small organizations because they run on such thin margins that websites are low on their payment lists.

Eddie May said:

Hi Rita,

I've had all these problems and more! Now, if a client wants something uploading onto their site, I ask for it already converted from pdf into html or as raw text & images. I particularly hate when clients send Word docs with naff images and then complain that the embedded image looks naff when its on the website! For any such content update I charge a min. 1 hour fee, since there is always subsidiary work (answering emails, raising invoices) that often doesn't get charged for. FreshBooks is good on this score, with its timer functionality.

 

Eddie

Rita Lewis said:

I have a terrible time convincing my clients (who are very small businesses or non-profits) that the basic software that comprises Joomla! and its add-ons needs updating on a regular basis (along with other housekeeping tasks on the server to ensure that the site keeps running efficiently). I have broken out maintenance on a monthly hourly rate up to a certain ceiling (usually 4 hours) and I have added it into the base fixed fee I charge, but clients are reluctant to take it on even when their sites fail to run fast after they have been given responsibility for content management OR worse, they get hacked because they failed to update the software.

 

I also have had arguments with clients when I say that I'll make three changes to design or layout other than correcting errors and then I have to charge for my time. I've lost several proposal bids this year because of this clause but if I don't put this in I find I get taken advantage of when committees change their minds on the look and feel of the site.

 

I even have terrible trouble getting my last payment because punch lists never end. And lately, I get arguments for my fees to add content -- my client says that it shouldn't take say an hour and a half to convert a PDF brochure to a Joomla article even if the brochure is three columns and has embedded images that need conversion.

 

Bottom line, customers will argue price but you need to charge for your time because it does take time to maintain a site (especially if aesthetics mean something to you and clients have been dumping Word files directly into Joomla overriding the template's typology). In addition, you need to charge for your knowledge. We have to educate our customers about the complexity underlying running a website so they understand what they are paying for.

Permalink Reply by Rita Lewis on January 23, 2011 at 10:32am

No suing here. Been there, done that. Earned the "how could it cost so much to upload one article? I sent you the materials..." Selling maintenance retainers would solve problems but scares off small clients who can't see the need.

Steven Zeegers said:

Eddie,

 

We get those "Word Documents" all the time.  Fortunately for us, our customers don't complain about how bad the images look.  I'm sure most of my customers actually believe they're the best pictures ever made. Last week, for example, we received a "batch" of images (Okay, an 11 page Word doc) which were 1) way too small and 2) they were just plain bad photographs.  Our client claimed them to be "perfect for the site", though.

 

Now, you'll never guess in what form I received their texts I had to upload.  In a Powerpoint document.  Let me tell you: It's been a hell to copy all the content and add it to the site; especially since most "slides" were broken up into three different text areas.  I spent hours following this procedure:  copy -> paste in notepad, to be sure -> paste in joomla.  Repeat 3 times for each slide.  Times 25 slides.

 

"It shouldn't take long, right? All the text is already written!".  Right...

 

Okay, so this is slightly off topic. Sue me. 

Permalink Reply by Rita Lewis on January 23, 2011 at 10:40am

Yes, this is exactly my experience, too. I practice similar policies when I can. I tell them up front what software comes with the proposal and add an expense escrow account to take into account any extensions I have to purchase. They never fight me on this, but do on updating. So, I add updates into the price of requests for content work. Those, they balk at. And yes, it is the small guys with no computer literacy who take up the most time in collections, hand-holding, and support.

Problem is, those are the clients who come to me and larger clients are few and far between. My partner who does the financial part of the business is getting fed up with the loss of revenue -- sometimes the fee goes down to just dollars and hour when I bid fixed fee -- in dealing with small businesses.

Eddie May said:

Hi,

My small company has experienced all these problems & find that there's a delicate balance between realistic pricing and scaring off the smaller clients.  But to answer your question, yes charging for maintenance is something we try to do & its something that some of our clients try to resist!

We charge our clients a reasonable hosting fee & tend to include core updates for free - since this helps prevent hacking etc. However, almost every Joomla! install includes other components/modules (JCE, Akeeba, etc), so simpler sites tend to get these for free.

If a site has a lot of these extensions, or is based around a component (say HotProperty or similar) then we tend to charge more for hosting, just to help cover upgrade costs. In these circumstances we try to ensure that the client understands the extra they're paying for hosting. That said, many even then don't seem to want to understand that these charges are necessary or fair. I'm looking for an accepted example from another sector that would help "normalise" the need for paying for upgrades.

 

We've also done the "small update" for free but have found that once you've done the client one favour, they expect to have things done for free forever, and the favours tend to get bigger! We now refuse to do "freebies" and say any such request will take  at least an hour. If clients complain, I ask them how often they do work for free! If they expect you to do things for free, then they don't respect you & they are being short sited.

 

One thing I have noticed is that the "cheap" clients (ie, those who try to bargain everything down) tend to be the "high maintenance" clients - so if a potential client tries to reduce the price I tend to "walk away" if I can afford to. Too often I've spent unprofitable time "pleasing" these clients rather than winning more rewarding clients.

Permalink Reply by Tom van Teijlingen on January 24, 2011 at 3:20am

This is almost a law of nature :). If a client wants it to cheap they're always very commanding. I try to avoid them to.

And yes, I also charge for site maintenance. Mostly a yearly fee as addition to the hosting costs.I don't host myself but have a deal with a hosting company.

If clients want extra services and/or adjustments to their site I send an offer first.

Eddie May said:

One thing I have noticed is that the "cheap" clients (ie, those who try to bargain everything down) tend to be the "high maintenance" clients - so if a potential client tries to reduce the price I tend to "walk away" if I can afford to. Too often I've spent unprofitable time "pleasing" these clients rather than winning more rewarding clients.

Permalink Reply by Ian Nelson on June 2, 2011 at 5:44am

I charge a setup fee which varies enormously depending on how much haggling the customer does with me.

 

I then charge a monthly fee to cover:

• hosting
• unlimited support
• maintenance updates
• security updates
• regular backups

 

I used to have no monthly fee and tried to charge ad-hoc for updates which was chaos.

The new model gives me a regular income from existing customers.

It does have some dangers in relation to the unlimited support, in that some customers are a heavy burden on me and get me to basically update their site's content regularly, others I rarely hear from.

 

I do have customers starting to query this charge but I find it is the simplest way to manage my customers.

 

regards

 

Ian