Joomla and non-code "bugs"
There's a fantastic discussion over on the Joomla Community Workgroup Leadership List(TM) that includes a carefully crafted email from Andrew Eddie (forwarded by Brad Baker) about creating a place for folks to call out for help, expose problems, raise concerns/complaints etc.
As I'm not allowed to post to that list, I wanted to say some things about it here, hoping others choose to chime in and voice their thoughts too.
As Andrew states, 2009 was a year that included a lot of drama for Joomla. Using the kitchen metaphor, a lot of pots boiled over, leaving a hell of a mess on the stovetop. How can this be handled better in the future? Instead of complaining about the mess, how can we ensure that these pots get attention before a grease fire breaks out?
I'd LOVE to see something magical happen: I know there's a discussion to move the Joomla core itself from the much-despised Gforge, and I'd love to see their web-based interface to whatever code repository they choose be Redmine.
Why?
Not only does it not suck, it also has a polymorphic tracker. Now, I see most of you nodding off or shaking your heads, so bear with me a sec.
When I say polymorphic tracker I really mean tracker that can have issues easily created for forum disputes, workflow problems, and complaints about stuff falling through the cracks like user group approval.
Are you still with me?
What this does is give folks a place to air their concerns and complaints about things that are not code, but out of their control that needs attention from the project as a whole. I hear of folks abusing moderators on the Joomla forums, but I also hear about moderators stepping over the line that shouldn't be crossed by a moderator. I hear about people that registered their events or user groups over a year ago and still have no response, or are getting the runaround. The list goes on and on. In fact it goes on so far that I've given up on Skype, as it seems nobody wants to talk about anything useful, they think Skype is some sort of group-enabled primal scream therapy or some such nonsense.
I don't have time for it anymore, and don't care either, if all they can offer is an angry mob. I've been deeply insulted by people I trusted, people I consider friends, because they allowed their anger to turn them mean.
I'm also powerless to effect any sort of change on all these things I hear about, as they are not documented anywhere and there's no way to ask for accountability.
However, Redmine's wicked shiny spiffy whack-daddy polymorphic tracker can do a world of good for this project:
I've repeatedly volunteered in the past to help with just such an approach, and always got a polite thanks but no thanks. Seeing this email from Brad to the list tells me this issue has gone unsolved, and for quite some time. Isn't now appropriate to take measures to keep 2010 from being the angry pitchfork experience that 2009 was?
What do you think?
As I'm not allowed to post to that list, I wanted to say some things about it here, hoping others choose to chime in and voice their thoughts too.
As Andrew states, 2009 was a year that included a lot of drama for Joomla. Using the kitchen metaphor, a lot of pots boiled over, leaving a hell of a mess on the stovetop. How can this be handled better in the future? Instead of complaining about the mess, how can we ensure that these pots get attention before a grease fire breaks out?
I'd LOVE to see something magical happen: I know there's a discussion to move the Joomla core itself from the much-despised Gforge, and I'd love to see their web-based interface to whatever code repository they choose be Redmine.
Why?
Not only does it not suck, it also has a polymorphic tracker. Now, I see most of you nodding off or shaking your heads, so bear with me a sec.
When I say polymorphic tracker I really mean tracker that can have issues easily created for forum disputes, workflow problems, and complaints about stuff falling through the cracks like user group approval.
Are you still with me?
What this does is give folks a place to air their concerns and complaints about things that are not code, but out of their control that needs attention from the project as a whole. I hear of folks abusing moderators on the Joomla forums, but I also hear about moderators stepping over the line that shouldn't be crossed by a moderator. I hear about people that registered their events or user groups over a year ago and still have no response, or are getting the runaround. The list goes on and on. In fact it goes on so far that I've given up on Skype, as it seems nobody wants to talk about anything useful, they think Skype is some sort of group-enabled primal scream therapy or some such nonsense.
I don't have time for it anymore, and don't care either, if all they can offer is an angry mob. I've been deeply insulted by people I trusted, people I consider friends, because they allowed their anger to turn them mean.
I'm also powerless to effect any sort of change on all these things I hear about, as they are not documented anywhere and there's no way to ask for accountability.
However, Redmine's wicked shiny spiffy whack-daddy polymorphic tracker can do a world of good for this project:
- Issues are documented, and disputes and resolution can be tracked
- It becomes unmistakably clear to the folks behind the project what needs fixin'
- By enabling the vote plugin, you can then vote on items, providing priority
- All can comment on issues, further providing a steam valve approach
- EVERYONE can gauge the progress of the project by seeing what issues weigh most on everyone's hearts
I've repeatedly volunteered in the past to help with just such an approach, and always got a polite thanks but no thanks. Seeing this email from Brad to the list tells me this issue has gone unsolved, and for quite some time. Isn't now appropriate to take measures to keep 2010 from being the angry pitchfork experience that 2009 was?
What do you think?
Views: 10
Tags: dispute resolution, issue tracker, joomla
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Comment by Amy Stephen on January 10, 2010 at 5:39pm
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Andrew's post was amazing. He is a true leader. I know he cares about the community and I thank Brad for sharing it and his willingness to help bring about positive changes in our community. Lots to think about, especially what we each individually can do to make things work better.
Mitch - I like your idea and I hope you can be used to implement it. You are right. Create something that people can use to be heard and get questions routed to the right folks and get issues documented and give folks a chance to respond. Thanks for using the word "hearts" - very true. I know you care a lot about all of us - and I have a ton of respect for you. Thanks for your post.
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Comment by Mark W. Bender on January 10, 2010 at 8:45pm -
Lack of "Follow Through" along with a "lack of communication" have lead to this dilemma.
Maybe having a "dispute committee" that also has a ombudsman could be a possible solution. The ombudsman would help to represent the community as a "whole".
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Comment by Robert Vining on January 11, 2010 at 1:01am -
I like the idea of Redmine if it's all that and a bag of chips as you describe it Mitch. I started to install this a few months back for project management, but didn't want to set up a ruby on rails environment just to test the software.
I also agree with Jacques and Mark that it needs a team to manage and follow through with those complaints. Mark's name 'Dispute Committee' has a ring to it, along with an ombudsman.
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Comment by Peter Russell on January 11, 2010 at 4:57am -
@ Mitch, what about http://www.assembla.com/ for tracking these important issues. For open source and community projects, they provide Free public workspaces are visible to all internet users and web crawlers. They can include any number of users and standard features. I'm sure they'd be keen to be part of Joomla's future with their tools in good use.
@ Amy I agree to disagree about "leadership" ... where we are at the moment is where we were two years ago when these problems started. Much of the old structure was abolished and now we're hearing that something similar to what was deconstructed is the answer!!?? Realistically we are seeing a cry for help. And until ego and dogma are removed from the leadership, we'll be in the same space two years from now. Is this cry for help a good thing? Maybe ... perhaps more than ever we can politely apply constructive pressure and see some reinvigorated direction as a result.
@ Everyone. I really hope these noises are genuine and not window dressing. We can only hope and apply gentle, encouraging pressure.
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Comment by Peter Russell on January 11, 2010 at 5:25am
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@ Amy, a true leader would have the courage to ask and answer the 'who' question. The question should be, WHO created the mess, WHO let it get out of control and please don't let anyone begin to try and apportion any of the WHO blame with community. Time and again we've seen people approach Joomla! leadership or OSM with an olive branch in one hand and knowledge in the other, only to be at best given a polite no. A TRUE leader would recognise they were central to the problem and step aside.
It's time.
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Peter -
Andrew is *absolutely* right when he said:
But I cannot stress enough that such a process should not be about apportioning blame or witch hunting, but addressing what internal process (or lack thereof) has led to the problem in the first place.
That goes for everybody. I would even go so far as to say I disagree with Brad's comment that the system could be used to identify problem people. We've got to stop pointing fingers in any direction and we need to start focusing on process, coordination, cooperation.
As one who spent years building data warehouses and performance dashboards, working with organizations on setting goals and measuring results - the data has to be safe in order for people to use the system.
The type of data a system like Mitch and Andrew are proposing would be helpful in pointing to many processes we - as a community - must invest in. If approvals are getting backed up for the TMs, then, the community knows volunteers are needed in that area. If there is a huge call for PR material from User's Groups and Joomla! Day Teams, then the community understands that pulling together and generating cool material for that use would be time well invested.
One thing we talked about here is that it's a "Start Over" place. We need a huge re-boot as a community. A place to leave history behind. Us old-timers got too many grudges that create a lot of misinterpretations of what others are saying. I've been honored to have a number of people ask me if they can submit my name for OSM. I thought about it a long time. Being on the OSM Board would be the type of honor that makes my eyes well up. But, I regrettably can't do it right now because I have not let go of enough garbage - and I would be a problem in that sense. I got to keep working on it.
What Andrew's post said to me is - we can work on improvements - and we can do it in a way that we respect one another and tackle our problems. I'm all in for that.
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Comment by Peter Russell on January 11, 2010 at 9:12am
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Amy, your sentiments are admirable but within this very post you've already lit the touchpaper by recognising a culture that "identifies problem people". Therein lies the real challenge. When the existing leadership "thinks" just about anyone who raises an opposing view is a "problem". Me thinks you would know more than most about leadership using perceptions about people to then motivate attacks against so-called problem people. Be that manifesting in locking of threads, calling conversations off-topic, banning community members or PR campaigns against individuals and or groups. Starting over is admirable, yes. However, I'd argue that starting over (let's call it a second or third chance) with no prospect of new blood taking these decisions, is in my view, the most fundamental problem we as a community face.
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you've already lit the touchpaper by recognising a culture that "identifies problem people".
So, let us stop doing it. Each and every one of us. Stop. Turn around. Pick up a rock. Carry it to the rock pile. Help. Make good things happen.
Not everyone can do that right now. But, no one is helping if they can't. And there is no good sitting in a pile of old doo-doo and talking about how much it smells.
I'm in for Andrew's idea. I would even help with this. It's the kind of work I spend a lot of time doing now - chasing down the right people and sharing information people need - and making sure people can connect to the project.
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Comment by Peter Russell on January 11, 2010 at 9:28am
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Pick up a rock? You've got me there.
The last thing I want to do is rain on this parade. For me it seems that you are saying we need to "suck it and see" which I'll respect. However, what do democratic communities generally do when they see a government that's failing. They vote it out. Now the penny drops for me, as we cannot vote non-performing people out, we have to work with what we've got. I know you'll come back with some post which effectively tells me to stop making these noises but I have every right to tell it how I see it. The buck has to stop with someone. And until the WHO question is answered, the song remains the same.
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Comment by Mitch Pirtle on January 11, 2010 at 9:42am -
Unfortunately you choose spin over substance Peter, but maybe that's just the way you like to roll. I know I can either be a part of the problem or the solution, and I'm tired of sitting around and complaining from the sidelines about the sloppy play that's happening out on the field.
What you're asking for, I don't actually know - perhaps you just want a complete ouster of the existing power structure of the project maybe - but realistically, regardless of whether I agree or disagree, that simply ain't going to happen.
Setting up a redmine instance so everyone can see where the smoke comes from introduces accountability. It also takes away the ability to deny the existence of some very real problems and shortcomings behind the project's current organization. Some say dogma and ego are killing the project from the top down, others claim there's just a total lack of available resources and volunteers to get everything done. Still others say the wrong people are playing the wrong roles minimizing their effectiveness.
Without something like redmine to document what is going on,expose the project's shortcomings, and publicize all the open offers to help, this is nothing more than talk. Do you want actual accountability and transparency, or do you just want to see some heads roll?
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