OSM and local JUGs: lack of rules or not? Post about JUG ethics
No, this is not about complain in delay in some response. Maybe is just different discussion now. And yes, sorry for my english, be patient.
OSM have some rules to permit people to use Joomla name and logo, but (at least is what I know, but I will would like a lot if someone point links to me) do not have so much rules about what one Joomla JUG site or one 'JUG' cannot do. Ok, I know that this permit a lot of freedom, and everyone love it, but in other hand take us one problem: and if one JUG (or one group of one person) is not doing that is right, and still using JUG name for call some more attention?
In my opinion, have one huge difference between one common user teach bad about Joomla, and one JUGsite/influent-joomla-person. In fist case, who cares? But in second, provably will just not have one simple problem, but also the same ideas will be followed by a lot of people, in special new people. So, I will make one question: must we permit that someone that none of us says that is wrong, or even endorse they words, stay making new users think that they can be not so ethic?.
Lets take one regional example, that a few people on last months discuss with me. The smallest state on Brazil (Distrito Federal) some years ago started one new JUG site http://www.joomlabrasilia.org that everyone, at least on that year, like this idea or help his region. Recently, a few users from that region complain about that JUG, because his site is 'too comercial', a site not so concerned in forming a user group. In they complains, this site have a few good courses about how to use Joomla that one man, in name of one entire JUG, sell it. Also, in name of JUG, the JUGsite sell sites and have his portfolio http://www.joomlabrasilia.org/sobre-o-joomla-brasilia/portfolio. With this, almost everyone that would like to join a regional group in that region just do not do it because simple would not like to join in one group that endorse services of a private company. After some months, a few users of that region decides create a new Joomla Group, and says this in forum, with complain about the old JUGsite. After this, the joomlabrasilia.org onwer appears on forum, and reply http://is.gd/6a2mK, admitting that his JUG is with only one member, him, that yes, sell joomla and tutorials in name of Distrito Federal state, and he do not think that this is wrong, since no one want help him. Not only this, but, since none other site is in a few states near his state, now he self call his JUG not only of one Brazil state, but one entire Brazil region.
My question is for who read it. Use JUG names to do this IS wrong? Say, for companies of a federal government that you represent the group of users that region (he admit on his post) ? Really have one place says that is wrong? If we do not have one place that say at least a few lines about this, none prevents that this happens in more places of the world, and maybe more people have problems like this, but just do not put in debate, and just stay way to join they regional JUG around the world.
OK that the answer can be bit easy for me or anyone that think a ethic way, but this is not so sure for any user, and worst: if none official site set a bit more that just rules for use of logos and joomla names, nothing prevent people or groups who should represent an ethical way to use joomla to teach new users the wrong way to act, in special if nobody complains that they continue acting that way!
I say this by thinking of how destructive it can be for a local users group to be discouraged to participate and be collaborative with other users of Joomla and, more than any one common user, if you are an 'opinion leader' and act incorrectly, can have destructive and permanent consequences.
Just for who is more interested, you can use google to translate a few links that are in portuguese:
http://www.fititnt.org/comunidade/comunidades-joomla-de-um-homem-so...:
My critic about one-man-joomla-comunitties, some sites that start and says that are one official support of they region or even entire Brazil/other countries
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=57496
Forum call of some about Brazil regional JUGs with old post, and with a few new posts. Now with a lot of complains and with some proposal of solutions.
OSM have some rules to permit people to use Joomla name and logo, but (at least is what I know, but I will would like a lot if someone point links to me) do not have so much rules about what one Joomla JUG site or one 'JUG' cannot do. Ok, I know that this permit a lot of freedom, and everyone love it, but in other hand take us one problem: and if one JUG (or one group of one person) is not doing that is right, and still using JUG name for call some more attention?
In my opinion, have one huge difference between one common user teach bad about Joomla, and one JUGsite/influent-joomla-person. In fist case, who cares? But in second, provably will just not have one simple problem, but also the same ideas will be followed by a lot of people, in special new people. So, I will make one question: must we permit that someone that none of us says that is wrong, or even endorse they words, stay making new users think that they can be not so ethic?.
Lets take one regional example, that a few people on last months discuss with me. The smallest state on Brazil (Distrito Federal) some years ago started one new JUG site http://www.joomlabrasilia.org that everyone, at least on that year, like this idea or help his region. Recently, a few users from that region complain about that JUG, because his site is 'too comercial', a site not so concerned in forming a user group. In they complains, this site have a few good courses about how to use Joomla that one man, in name of one entire JUG, sell it. Also, in name of JUG, the JUGsite sell sites and have his portfolio http://www.joomlabrasilia.org/sobre-o-joomla-brasilia/portfolio. With this, almost everyone that would like to join a regional group in that region just do not do it because simple would not like to join in one group that endorse services of a private company. After some months, a few users of that region decides create a new Joomla Group, and says this in forum, with complain about the old JUGsite. After this, the joomlabrasilia.org onwer appears on forum, and reply http://is.gd/6a2mK, admitting that his JUG is with only one member, him, that yes, sell joomla and tutorials in name of Distrito Federal state, and he do not think that this is wrong, since no one want help him. Not only this, but, since none other site is in a few states near his state, now he self call his JUG not only of one Brazil state, but one entire Brazil region.
My question is for who read it. Use JUG names to do this IS wrong? Say, for companies of a federal government that you represent the group of users that region (he admit on his post) ? Really have one place says that is wrong? If we do not have one place that say at least a few lines about this, none prevents that this happens in more places of the world, and maybe more people have problems like this, but just do not put in debate, and just stay way to join they regional JUG around the world.
OK that the answer can be bit easy for me or anyone that think a ethic way, but this is not so sure for any user, and worst: if none official site set a bit more that just rules for use of logos and joomla names, nothing prevent people or groups who should represent an ethical way to use joomla to teach new users the wrong way to act, in special if nobody complains that they continue acting that way!
I say this by thinking of how destructive it can be for a local users group to be discouraged to participate and be collaborative with other users of Joomla and, more than any one common user, if you are an 'opinion leader' and act incorrectly, can have destructive and permanent consequences.
Just for who is more interested, you can use google to translate a few links that are in portuguese:
http://www.fititnt.org/comunidade/comunidades-joomla-de-um-homem-so...:
My critic about one-man-joomla-comunitties, some sites that start and says that are one official support of they region or even entire Brazil/other countries
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=57496
Forum call of some about Brazil regional JUGs with old post, and with a few new posts. Now with a lot of complains and with some proposal of solutions.
-
Comment by Acchile Biagioli on January 12, 2010 at 8:38pm -
This is a long talk and with many aspects to discuss, but I believe, OSM should close the walls over Joomla. If things keep going as they are now, soon someone will can sell himself as Joomla Pope or Joomla Owner or Joomla Official anything.
Bad things can be done using a Joomla logo. The actual freedom allowed by OSM to Joomla can cause damages to Joomla public image.
Freedom is good, but some rules are necessary to avoid the massive and commercial exploration of a brand. I like to sell Joomla based sites because its open and friendly and many other technical aspects, but this dont mean that is mine or I am allowed to use some "official" badge and sell courses or anything with Joomla logos or in OSM name.
Many people saying "I am Joomla Master Pope" or "Come participate of a Joomla Official Group" and it´s not true. Or is? If no rules, anyone can be official or can declare yourself as "Joomla Anything", create "official" courses, or be an "official" Joomla site-maker.
So, however I wouldnt know where to start, I agree with this screaming question by Emerson.
-
Comment by Amy Stephen on January 12, 2010 at 8:40pm
-
Emerson - I pinged Jen Kramer, who helps out with Joomla! User Groups, and asked if she had time to respond to you with ideas.
The Joomla! Trademark Policy and Logo Usage rules are on OSM's site. It doesn't appear that those rules are followed. Contacting OSM is the best approach - I believe you could do so via their contact form or by using the legal@opensourcematters.org email address.
I've noticed a lot of Tweeting on this topic and also the forum post. It's been hard to understand since my FoxLingo doesn't translate from Portuguese very well. I can tell it's been difficult and I'm sorry for what you are going through.
Thanks for posting - let's get you guys some help on this.
-
Comment by Jen Kramer on January 12, 2010 at 8:41pm -
Hello Emerson -- I do not speak for OSM or Joomla, but I run a user group, Joomla User Group New England, www.joomlanewengland.org
It is my understanding that to be an officially recognized user group by OSM, you must go to this page:
http://community.joomla.org/user-groups.html
Then follow the directions to apply for OSM recognition of the user group.
Further on that page, I see there is only one officially recognized user group in Brazil, Joomla! User Group Pará, http://www.joomlapaidegua.com/
So the first problem is that this person CANNOT be the official user group for that region. At least it is not recognized by OSM. I suppose he can say whatever he wants on his website, but hopefully OSM will make him remove it. You are welcome to set up your own user group and apply for OSM recognition.
Having said that -- what he is doing is absolutely wrong. It is wrong to call yourself a user group and be one person, and to do it to profit from building Joomla sites.
OSM can enforce their trademark by telling this guy he may not use the domain name www.joomlabrasilia.org. However, I do not know what mechanisms they have for enforcement.
I would encourage you to send an email to OSM here:
http://www.opensourcematters.org/contact/12-contacts/5-license-info...
Explain the problem as a trademark violation by an unrecognized user group.
Then set up your own user group for that region of Brazil, and apply to OSM for official recognition.
Good luck!
Thanks,
Jen
-
Comment by Emerson Rocha Luiz on January 12, 2010 at 10:05pm -
Thanks for all replies. I think that discuss about this can give some good results.
Fist of all, we know about Joomla! Trademark Policy and Logo Usage rules. But only use that argument against users to comment on this type of error is very weak, and can be in certain situations even bypassed.
Is almost impossible OSM deal with all cases like this. And even if they catch more people, maybe just send email like 'please, stop to use my logo/name' will just do not work. But have one way to solve this problem: make all joomla users to police people who should be an example within the community. Again: I'm not talking about ordinary users, it is a bit serious, I'm talking about people who want to disclose information or make a site intending to organize a group of users.
My point is that Joomla really need one place that 'good' part of users put what is ethic, and what is not. If this exist, even normal users become more stronger against who forgot the Joomla essence, and become less 'we' and more 'I'. And also, everyone that pretend to be a bit more for joomla users( and this include these people), will know about this page for sure, and will be a bit more strong and would have to struggle with his conscience knowing that is unethical.
And also, is not only these people that think that do these thinks could be right. Talking with a few common joomla users (not so integrated with the sense of community) doesn't see any problem in, if anyone create one JUG and doesn't receive help of other people to do it, its not a problem if who 'own' the JUG start to sell services in name of entire JUG (-of-one-person).
-
Comment by Brian "Sully" Sullivan on January 12, 2010 at 10:14pm -
OSM needs to make a call for contributions, or create an internship program, or whatever in terms of trademark protection. We don't simply need coders to volunteer. Among our many other needs is legal work product.
-
Comment by Manoel J. Silva on January 13, 2010 at 5:37am -
Within the Outrech Group , there's a discussion started by Faisal Qureshi that started discussions regarding the JUGs .
On December 11 I posted, on the above, raising this issue questioning the facts that were of my knowledge then.
There seems to be more JUGs' Domain Licenses issued - for Brazil - than the shows.
I have have personally posted at asking for an update on that list, as Emerson pointed out that the community is trying to structure JUGs and users are claiming a JUG already exists for that area, or that someone already "owns" the domain for that respective area.
Talking for myself, I am aware of both the rules and procedures regarding the JUGs registration process and the trademark policies and believe that, to a certain point, they should enough to point the direction to non-abusive usage of JUGs.
What I believe lacks is procedures that follow up the JUGs creation/recognition by OSM and the gathering and availabilty of data regarding their existence, success or failure.
By the way, there's the Registered Joomla! User Groups Forum where intearction between JUGs would be beneficial to all
Thank you all,
Manoel
(iikozen)
-
Comment by Manoel J. Silva on January 13, 2010 at 5:46am
-
For some unknown reason the links I posted above didn't show!?
-
Comment by Jen Kramer on January 13, 2010 at 6:57am
-
OK everyone --
Not long ago, Ryan posted a report showing how OSM spent their money. A debate then went on about why OSM was spending so much on legal fees. Guess why? Things like this.
OSM registered the Joomla trademark in the US, but then needed to register it in countries around the world. There are a number of cases where other people not related to the Joomla project have tried to register the Joomla trademark in their country.
Once the trademark is registered within a given country, then they have the grounds to enforce it.
However, as we all know, OSM/the project does not have a lot of money, so they have to select these cases of infringement carefully. For example, it was worth their time to go after the shopping mall in India who decided to use the Joomla logo as their mall logo.
The correct use of the Joomla trademark is in everyone's interest. Officially recognized Joomla user groups are also in everyone's interest. If you believe this, then you can't criticize OSM for spending money on legal fees.
If you have ideas of how we can better police the use of the trademark, I am sure OSM would like to hear about it.
Unfortunately, we must work within the system we have. Telling the OSM legal team that their trademark is being violated by an unofficial "user group" is a good start.
Thanks,
Jen
-
-
With respect, Jen, 100k is quite a bit for a year - as a point of comparison Drupal's total cost to date is about 20% of what it cost us during 2008. We still do not know what it cost during 2009 for the TM for Joomla! - I wouldn't even venture a guess. And, yes, Drupal also has acquired the TM in various countries world wide.
That isn't to say all of the expenses weren't valid and important. And, I am not hearing a lot of complaints about us having a TM, the frustration I hear and feel is that there is a lack of information about what we are doing and there has been honestly no involvement with the community in helping craft a policy that works for us. It appears, in part because of the "complaining", the project is responding with information and Ewout's proposal for adaptations is getting some attention.
I realize it's not fun when people complain. For some, it's not been fun rebranding. For others, it's not fun submitting an application - asking over and over - and still not having an answer from OSM if you are licensed or not. This has been a tough one for the community and sometimes, letting it all hang out and trying to get some attention on a problem is the way forward.
I actually see us moving in good directions now. Ryan and Lorenzo, and many others, have been very positive and helpful - working out there with the community - trying to open things up. It's much appreciated.
-
-
I have the flu - so - that might have sounded harsh towards you, Jen, and that wasn't my intention. I really hope we can make it clear that these are important complaints people have - it's cost some money to rebrand and tell their customers - and it has not always been easy to get feedback and help. I see a community that wants to be a part of Joomla! and wants to get along and show respect and support and have fun with the project. Once in awhile, we will have these periods of growth and being able to hear the message, without judging, can be very helpful.
I always appreciate your viewpoints, Jen. You are sharp and articulate and someone I am proud to have in our community.
Going back to bed :P
© 2012 Created by Amy Stephen.
You need to be a member of All Together, As A Whole to add comments!
Join All Together, As A Whole