The Gap - no, not the department store

Comment by Amy Stephen on April 16, 2010 at 7:48pm

1. What is the purpose of this site? How can it help you?

For quite awhile, I wanted a resource like this on property because community was not contributing - involvement was at dangerously low levels for a long time and it just wasn't bouncing back. I was concerned about the negativity between third party folks and the project. I was told to be patient that the reorg would take care of this. But, it didn't. The same people were permitted to participate in discussions and everyone else locked out - there was no interest in expanding involvement or opening a network to build community.

I let folks know I was going to open a little site and see if we could figure out why people aren't getting involved and help them jump in. Everyone was invited from the project a few times. Some were immediately threatened, most didn't care.

The purpose of this site is to bring members of the Joomla! community together, to provide a fun and comfortable place for folks to work together, share information, and talk about J!. To help people get involved in the community and help with the project.

For me, it's valuable as it helps build connections, provide access to expert, and ideas I would have never considered.

2. What are the advantages of an independent site?

Freedom from forum rules and non-peer moderation that are important for large groups of unknown people but inhibiting for small communities of know members.

Ability to focus on topics we are interested in as developers, web site builders, advanced users of Joomla!. We can discuss business issues, licenses, whatever. It's for us.

New users can interfere with those discussions and excluding them is not an option. It's nice having a place for us.

The seclusion keeps our discussions out of notice for new Joomla! users. Sometimes, our conversations could be confusing, or alarming, or difficult for new folks who do not understand the project to hear. It's good to pull some of that away from the forums.

Having an alternative helps keep a balance and assurances that people remember the need to be open and transparent and not to threaten or harm community members. There should be a place for people to turn if they need peer support.

Site builders and developers are important to Joomla!'s success. It is good that the project has a way to observe honest discussions and attitudes and can tap these resources or ask questions. We can strengthen this by being more valuable to the project helping with the work.

Here, people find they can be heard and visible. Many of the OSM members were discovered that way. Promising developers are getting attention deserved because they can stand out.

3. What are the disadvantages of an independent site?

Some behave in completely inappropriate and unprofessional ways attacking others because there are not SERIOUS repercussions. Unfortunately, this disadvantage also applies to the central sites where a some in power sometimes act in completely inappropriate and unprofessional ways attacking others because there are not SERIOUS repercussions to them.

As people become more active here, it's easier to be less active in the forums and doing project work.

How can you be "All Together, as A Whole" when you are separate? Think about it.

The separation most definitely creates a sense of divide.

New users are not able to learn from professionals when they are there and we are here.

It is offensive to some people and it likely impacts trust in a negative way.

We aren't building up relationships with project folks who do not participate here. Over time, that's not good.

4. Do you hope the new community working group social network might become the substitute for this site? What do you need for that to be true for you?

Yes, I do hope for that. I have hoped for a "groups" resource for years for Joomla!.

For me, it would be important that the community be allowed to build and maintain the site and to self-direct like we do here, and like they do on Drupal Groups. By that, I mean no moderators, and allow community to interact freely, forming groups on topics they wish to explore and even allow them to be critical of the project and decisions and directions. Empowering community in that manner will build ownership in the resource and peer moderation.

It is my impression we aren't quite there but we are heading in those directions. When the developer site and the social networking site go up, if those sites meet the needs, this one will go away on it's own. I have every confidence this is a natural evolution and we are moving in good directions.

Comment by David Vega on April 16, 2010 at 10:27pm

I'd love to take time and answer each question but I'm short on time. However, I'd like to share a pair of notions I drew from reading this (and some of the other thread's comments).

I see this community as:

- A Joomla Expert Exchange; and also...
- An Elite Joomla Community (where everyone is welcome).

I have about 6 years of experience as administrator of two communities (the first led to the second, the second grew beyond my expectations [2k+ users]) and I can calmly assert what you say is true: A self moderating community is totally possible, just give them something to treasure and the spirit will spread.

Comment by Manoel J. Silva on April 17, 2010 at 8:03am

1- a success!
2- just fine!
3- the mentioned "divide", just like fingers and thumb in a hand, is something organic, positive, useful and many times needs to exist. I am glad ATAAW came to be. The true "All Together, As A Whole" is alive, as it is, and Joomla is evolving.
4- Community WorkingGroup? The Project decisions and directions? Well, I too hope for a better future and would like for a day to come when the topic is positively raised on property to discuss the subject. Till then...
:)

Comment by Martin Rasser on April 17, 2010 at 10:41am

I'd put it very simply: This site makes is simple to share Joomla related topics (knowledge, questions, opinions, flames :) ) and Ning offers a nice platform for this. If this site is part of Joomla.org or independent is quite irrelevant to me, I don't see any big pros or cons. In case there will be an equally practical platform in the Joomla.org sphere, then I wouldn't mind switching. But what's really important is that this network works so why complicating things?

Comment by Ewout Wierda on April 17, 2010 at 1:07pm

1.
A. Directly:
i. Network with Joomla developers
ii. Discuss and collaborate with Joomla developers
B. Indirectly:
Discussion and collaboration regarding Joomla can help improve Joomla as a CMS and project

2/3/4 ATAAW is independent, so there would have to be a specific reason to integrate it in the Joomla sites infrastructure. For that reason, it would have to be better doing what ATAAW does on joomla.org. Given that part of the raison d'existence of ATAAW consists of failings in Joomla while change has only just started, and that another part consists of peer to peer third party developer networking which has no more relationship to Joomla than that it concerns Joomla developers, I see no specific reason at the moment to integrate. In the future, this might be different, so this is a question that we can ask ourselves from time to time. At the moment I do not think the community working group can achieve its goals without further change on the whole.

Comment by HarryB on April 18, 2010 at 8:58am

My opinion...

I do not view maintaining the independence of this site as a "continuation of the divide." To tell the truth, I was a bit taken aback by the reference to the divide and the implication that support for the project was lacking here .

The different views of reality regarding the project existed in one form or another long before this site appeared...and closing down this site will, in my opinion, will do little in the grand scheme of things to change these views.

I view this site as no different than many other external sites that augment, add value to, or gain value from a relationship with the project. I see no reason to move this site "on property" now or any time in the foreseeable future. We're not Borg!

Comment by Robert Vining on April 18, 2010 at 12:38pm

@Harry B
+1 Sir

Comment